When you’re electronically immortal, will you still own your own mind?

Most of my blogs about immortality have been about the technology mechanism – adding external IT capability to your brain, improving your intelligence or memory or senses by using external IT connected seamlessly to your brain so that it feels exactly the same, until maybe, by around 2050, 99% of your mind is running on external IT rather than in the meat-ware in your head. At no point would you ‘upload’ your mind, avoiding needless debate about whether the uploaded copy is ‘you’. It isn’t uploaded, it simply grows into the new platform seamlessly and as far as you are concerned, it is very much still you. One day, your body dies and with it your brain stops, but no big problem, because 99% of your mind is still fine, running happily on IT, in the cloud. Assuming you saved enough and prepared well, you connect to an android to use as your body from now on, attend your funeral, and then carry on as before, still you, just with a younger, highly upgraded body. Some people may need to wait until 2060 or later until android price falls enough for them to afford one. In principle, you can swap bodies as often as you like, because your mind is resident elsewhere, the android is just a temporary front end, just transport for sensors. You’re sort of immortal, your mind still running just fine, for as long as the servers carry on running it. Not truly immortal, but at least you don’t cease to exist the moment your body stops working.

All very nice… but. There’s a catch.

The android you use would be bought or rented. It doesn’t really matter because it isn’t actually ‘you’, just a temporary container, a convenient front end and user interface. However, your mind runs on IT, and because of the most likely evolution of the technology and its likely deployment rollout, you probably won’t own that IT; it won’t be your own PC or server, it will probably be part of the cloud, maybe owned by AWS, Google, Facebook, Apple or some future equivalent. You’re probably already seeing the issue. The small print may give them some rights over replication, ownership, license to your idea, who knows what? So although future electronic immortality has the advantage of offering a pretty attractive version of immortality at first glance, closer reading of the 100 page T&Cs may well reveal some nasties. You may in fact no longer own your mind. Oh dear!

Suppose you are really creative, or really funny, or have a fantastic personality. Maybe the cloud company could replicate your mind and make variations to address a wide range of markets. Maybe they can use your mind as the UX on a new range of home-help robots. Each instance of you thinks they were once you, each thinks they are now enslaved to work for free for a tech company.

Maybe your continued existence is paid for as part of an extended company medical plan. Maybe you didn’t notice a small paragraph on page 93 that says your company can continue to use your mind after you’re dead. You are very productive and they make lots of profit from you. They can continue that by continuing to run your mind indefinitely. The main difference is that since you’re dead, and no longer officially on the payroll, they get you for free. You carry on, still thinking you’re you, still working, still doing what you do, but no longer being paid. You’ve become a slave. Again.

Maybe your kids paid to keep you alive because they don’t want to say goodbye. They still want their parent, so you carry on living just so they don’t feel alone. Doesn’t sound so bad maybe, but what package did they go for? The full deluxe super-expensive version that lets you do all sorts of expensive stuff and use up oodles of processing power and storage and android rental? Let’s face it, that’s what you’ve always though this electronic immortality meant. Or did they go for a cheaper one. After all, they know you know they have kids or grand-kids in school that need paid for, and homes don’t come cheap, and they really need that new kitchen. Sure, you left them lots of money in the will, but that is already spent. So now you’re on the economy package, bare existence in between them chatting to you, unable to do much on your own at all. All those dreams about living forever in cyber-heaven have come to nothing.

Meanwhile, some rich people paid for good advice and bought their own kit and maintenance agreements well ahead. They can carry on working, selling their services and continuing to pay for ongoing deluxe existence.  They own their own mind still, and better than that, are able to replicate instances of themselves as much as thy want, inhabiting many androids at the same time to have a ball of a time. Some of these other instances are connected, sort of part of a hive mind of you. Others, just for fun, have been cut loose and are now living totally independent existences of other yous. Not you any more once you set them free, but with the same personal history.

What I’m saying is you need to be careful when you plan  to live forever. Get it right, and you can live in deluxe cyber-heaven, hopping into the real world as much as you like and living in unimaginable bliss online. Have too many casual taster sessions, use too much fully integrated mind-sharing social media, sign up to employment arrangements or go on corporate jollies without fully studying the small print and you could stay immortal, unable to die, stuck forever as just a corporate asset, a mere slave. Be careful what you wish for, and check the details before you accept it. You don’t want to end up as just an unpaid personality behind a future helpful paperclip.

99 responses to “When you’re electronically immortal, will you still own your own mind?

  1. Very refreshing ideas. Thank you!


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  3. Comment on behalf of Robin Helweg-Larsen One thought: the extension of the mind into external accessories will certainly help processing power, but will it be able to transfer all the accumulated memories that are the heart of our personality? If you lose the original body, how much of the memory (and therefore personality) will be lost? Indeed, where is memory stored? What if it isn’t just in the brain, but (for example) in all the “junk DNA” in every cell of the body?


    • Way back in 1991, I had a good idea for stimulating memory recall while people are asleep, which actually requires similar tech to a full direct brain link. By stimulating each area of the brain electronically, it is possible to cause recall of the associated memory – that was done actually around then by a neuroscience researcher, electronically stimulating point 21 on the right temporal lobe if I recall correctly. . Doing that would cause that part of your memory to be copied into external kit, without creating an identity issues. So you could gradually make sure that your memories also exist on the external kit. I guess that would equate to an extremely slow download, but I don’t think trying to do the whole brain at once would work.

      As for the junk DNA, some work has been done on memory inheritance, but it seemed not to be very convincing. Instinct is presumably stored in DNA, but probably not memories you make during your life. Other molecules and proteins are able to transfer between generations too, so there is some scope there, but again I haven’t yet seen any convincing results. If I see anything in areas like that, I’d normally tweet it because I’d see its importance right away, but I haven’t.

      Liked by 2 people

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  21. That isn’t immortality. Electronics will never provide what biology does and to call the ideas “immortality” is a simplistic re-imaging of what immortality truly is. It would be nothing more than data with a mediocre-at-best emulation of personality. All in all, a pipe dream.


    • What evidence is there that electronics can never do what biology does? Biology doesn’t use magic, it uses the same natural elements, physics & chemistry available to engineers to understand and work with, and in very many cases, engineers come up with solutions that work better than their natural inspirations. It is entirely feasible to create future platforms that can offer similar or superior functionality to the brain, and to expect them to exist by 2050. To assert that it would be ‘nothing more than …’ reflects only your own views of how it might be implemented, not mine or any other engineer’s. Even if it does turn out to be more difficult or there is really no other way to solve the problem than to use biological processes and materials, bio-engineering could still do that, just further in the future. Synthetic biology isn’t as mature as other engineering branches yet, but it will get there. Either way, it is feasible, and the only real question is timescale. I’ll stick with 2050 until new evidence suggests otherwise.

      Liked by 1 person

    • That depends on whether or not the uploaded data develops self-awareness. If it does, that new entity might well be immortal, but there would be a break in the awareness between the original meat person, who presumably will die, and the “e-person” who carries on. The meat person will have a funeral, and the e-person might well attend, and be convinced that he or she (or it) will in fact be the continuation of the deceased. Or possibly it will never lose the feeling that it is a fake.


      • It isn’t a copy or a download of your mind, it is a gradual extension of ‘brain space’ into the cloud that allows part of your mind to run there instead of in the brain. Over time, more and more is cloud-resident, and less and less dependent on your brain. Your death would mean only a small drop in total, like a minor stroke I guess. The structures and architecture in the cloud platform need of course to be compatible, but I think that is entirely feasible.


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  32. Is there any practical attempt on achieving and being immortal, or merely some (empty) theories and assumptions?


    • The 2045 Project is the biggest effort I believe. Obviously they believe they can achieve something along these lines in 2045. Allowing for FDA approval etc, that adds at least another 5 years so they’d also go with 2050 for first commercial availability I guess. I wouldn’t be dismissive though. It’s easy and tempting to casually dismiss other engineer’s and scientist’s work as ’empty theories and assumptions’ without any evidence, (happens to me all the time) but usually if you take the time to talk to the people doing the work, you find they know a lot more than you assumed, and very often far more than you do yourself. Few engineers work on projects without a high degree of competence and usually aren’t attempting to do something in ways that can’t work, so it isn’t reasonable to assume they are idiots. In this field, there is a lot of well-founded work going on across a very diverse set of fields, aiming at very diverse goals, that will provide a wonderful toolkit and knowledge base for immortality researchers. I don’t work in the field except tracking and analysing potential developments and consequences, and have no interest in immortality for myself, but as a 35 years experience systems engineer looking at the IT & neuroscience progress and their co-acceleration, I think 2050 is quite achievable. It might be a few years later, but the exciting thing is that it is achievable at all. I don’t see any fundamental barriers.

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  42. This is interesting post, and immortality becomes real after being discovered by Allen Omton and Serge Dobrow


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  44. Is it that your mind is uploaded to the cloud using a nanorobot or streaming to the cloud via nonprofit in the brain. What technology you used to achieve a electronic immortality or growing mind on external it. Is it by nanorobot or you can just use bci to transfer mind to machine. Also do we have enough computational power to store brain o. The cloud by 2050. Is it that every NHS or clinic provide this service in 2050. Who is going to achieve this. If this is not a sort of mind uploading , is it nanorobot connected to the brain or using bci to transfer mind or any other technology.


    • Also lots of neuroscientist claims mind uploading to computer in current technology is impossible. What technology is used for electronic immortality or mind running in external it if it isn’t a mind uploading what is it. Is it really easy or expected to be toatally achievable by 2050. So people can just wait until 2050 and it is the right time for you to become android or mind running on external it. Do you need any device or machine to do this.


      • It is not mind uploading, it is a virtual brain extension. The additional brain space would be connected to the brain via tiny components connected to every electronically active region, so the mind would be distributed between the organic and synthetic IT, and since the synthetic IT is expandable it will account for increasing proportion. Clearly, this also allows virtual inhabiting of an android too.


      • If the virtual brain extension theory is clear. Is there anybody working on using this method to transfer mind. How do you connect the brain to the external it. Is it need a surgically open a head a invasive way to reach a brain. Or is this still not achievable using current technology. Or someone will do it when it come to near 2050. Is it bci to connect the brain to virtual brain
        Would the consciousness be transfer to virtual brain via this method. I still do not know what technology is needed to connect brain to virtual brain isn’t it a whole brain emulation. Is there any scientist working on it. Or other scientist disagree with this theory is it a wide accepting theory.


      • The technology does not exist yet, it is likely to exist around 2045-2050. It is far too early to make precise statements about how it will work, but likely to involve an injection containing a suspension of tiny particles small enough to enter the brain and connect to each synapse etc. These could signal to external IT and treat it just as they do neighbors in the brain itself. The 2045 Initiative is one of many trying to solve elements of the problem, and solutions will gradually develop over time. We don’t need all the answers 30 years in advance.


    • So how it is different from mind uploading. Is this method much easier than mind uploading. What happen if you can send the components to neuron and connect them. Do the components contain any function. How do components can connect neuron to cloud. Is connecting the neuron to cloud mean instantly you can transfer the whole consciousness to the cloud or Android. If such a method is feasible . Why would we still need connectome or whole brain emulation to achieve mind uploading. Is the neuron connected to the cloud easier than mind uploading. I saw one scientists want to use bci to connect human brain to machine brain to achieve upload named Watanabe masataka. Is it a feasible way to use invasive bci to connect neuron to machine brain.


      • Most people think of mind uploading as making a copy of your mind, so it is a replica of you, not you. Making a virtual extension of your brain ensures that it is still you. The technologies have not been developed yet, so details are speculation.


      • the comment wrote that there is no fundamental barriers to achieve this. Is it really that easy or no barrier to achieve it. How could you estimate that the technology is going to develop in 2045-2050. What factor is needed to develop this technology. Is it totally achievable or feasible to achieve this technology or a merely assumption. Would there any big barrier or difficulty to achieve this.


      • There are lots of engineering problems – miniaturization, comms, penetrating blood-brain barrier, missing neuroscience, body-safe encapsulation and so on. We already have simple connections to nerves, neural networks, radio, addressing etc, so it is possible, just very difficult, hence ~30 years


      • If we can not use virtual brain extension for Android but electric immortality. When we will be able to use or upload our mind on Android. Didn’t you said we can connect the bot to neuron of the cloud of Android on we can achieve electric immortality . When. Can use Android or while prosthetic body. Or swap body. Are we going to achieve electric immortality on our own body. How will we able to live forever if we not swap body or using Android. Our body will be die when age come.


    • If compo can connect to neuron and connect our brain to synthetical neocortex or external it. How can it become mind uploading or consciousness transfer. Isn’t it just a brain connect to internet or web. How can mind be transfer to Android or mind transfer using compo connected to neuron. Is that Synthetic neocortex can mean to achieve electric immortality. Why it can become mind transfer just by connect it to the neuron. Would it download mind or back it up or anything else.


      • The network provides a fast connection, and any external IT intended to act as a brain extension would need to mimic the architecture and mechanisms of the brain to work as a mind platform, a digital computer using android would not work.


      • Do we need to wait until 2100 or beyond if the technology did not grow as expected or it too hard for current engineer to make this technology. Or it is relatively easy to make it happen in 2050. Also when technology comes up and tiny comp go inside our brain and it connect to our neuron would it mean that is immediately leads to virtual brain extension and immortality like uploads to cloud on Android. Is this technology a most elemental technology the first part. That this technology needs furthur improvement to achieve immortality. Or this is last part and this can leads to indicate immortality in 2050. How many percent would this exist in 2050.


      • I already explained that android and other digital platforms will not be suited as brain extension platforms. As for dates, 2045 in the lab, 2050 on the market is the earliest you could expect electronic immortality, but it might take longer than that, depending on engineering talent, regulation barriers etc.


      • Isnt it that we can store brain on the cloud and swap the body on any Android. If Android and other digital platform is not suited to virtual brain extension, what platform is used for virtual brain extension. Is it our own body. So what happen if we achieve electronic immortality . Isn’t it means our brain can change to other body. How strong is electric immortality or virtual brain. Extension. Is the virtual brain extension a personal opinion or a highly predictable common view of all the scientists.


      • The brain would not be stored in the cloud, but the cloud would house an extension to it. Sorry, I thought you were talking about Android OS, which is no use. Yes you could use the mechanism to link to an android body. I and many other believe analog neural nets will be needed rather than digital simulations of them. Many of your other questions are addressed in my several other blogs on immortality, please type immortality into the blog search field to find them.


      • If we have reached electronic immortality , isn’t that we do not need mind uploading anymore. If virtual brain extension come early than mind uploading , Is mind uploading not needed anymore.


      • Mind uploading implies making a copy, which is a copy of you, not you. Extending the brain until 99% of your thinking happens externally lets you carry on until the IT running it stops for whatever reason, a sort of conditional immortality.


      • I saw no one is mentioning a full direct brain link by 2050. People see brain machine interface are very elemental and primitive . We can not reach the level of bci in sci-fi that high level of full direct brain link. We are still very far from that sci-fi brain link. Would it be really possible to make such device and engineer in just 30 years. DARPA only have come to develop a bci for million of neuron. Is it really technology moving that fast that we can have full direct brain link in 30 years. How long would it take the most if the development were slow. Would technology developing that fast in 30 years. I wonder 30 years are too short and no one say it is possible to have a direct brain link. Are scientist just hiding the fact that it kind possible to have it on only 30 years.


      • As I have written in all my blogs, 2050 is a reasonable date to expect first availability.


      • Also what is your slowest prediction of if technology developing very slow about bci would it takes much longer than 2050. Like 2100-2150. How long would take it most if it is slow development. Or it is very likely happen early and faster to achieve electronic immortality. Because I really feels like it is a 2500 technology in the sci-fi movie rather than a so close daily reality of 2050 technology. Would not it be a huge news if it is achieved. Would not it be impossible for 2050 to achieve that far far advanced technology that can be electric immortal.


      • If it is slower development, it will occur later. I see zero point in speculating about how much slower slow might be.


      • if we have elemental or primitive brain machine interface in now. Does it take another 50 years for middle range bci and another 50 years for full brain link. Isn’t it too fast for full brain link in 30 years.


      • I estimate full brain link availability in 2050.


      • What evidence and theory or experiment could lead to full brain link in 2050. because our bci today is so primitive and elemental. How can we have so much exponential growth in 30 years that never seen before. Do we have any clue or confidential results or base technology that can achieve it.


      • As I suggested before, you should read my previous blogs on the associated techs and their evolution if you want more detail on my reasoning.


      • How can we transferring or scanning the brain. What kind of external IT or platform are be used. Is it substrate independent mind or it is neural prothesis that going to be replacing all of the biological brain parts. Or is it a whole brain simulation. When the full brain link is arrived is that mean we can connect to our 86 billion neuron , just 30 years from our merely 1 million current bci connection of neuron at now primitive technology of 2018. Can we really do that. Isn’t it 2100 technology. Is it based on solid science fact or research about bci and what is external IT is it a exa flop super computer for whole brain emulation.


      • I refer you to my previous answers


      • if consciousness is encrypted on the synapse how can we transfer it to external it. We also do not know what consciousness is. Would we able to clack consciousness by 2050. Or we do not need to know what consciousnes is when you connect to external it. If consciousness is inside the synapse how can we take it out. It is still a mystery. It is like taking out your soul. How can we do that.


      • if soul or consciousness is embodied in the synapse can not take it out . How can we take the soul or consciousness out to fit to external it. Can we run our soul in the external it. Our soul and consciousness can not be taken out so how can we transfer them. Also do we need to know what is consciousness in order to achieve electric immortality .


  45. Fascinating thoughts. I wonder what you would think about The Immortality Game, which touches on all this.


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  56. Where do I sign up for this?


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